Bank bail-outs:
The Bank of England estimates that the total costs of bailing out the financial system is £1.3tr, or more than 10 times the entire NHS budget.The UK bank bailout accounts for about 1/3 of the global banking bailout.
3 years on the British government continues to subsidise ‘too big to fail banks’ banks:
- £46 billion: the combined subsidy the ‘Big Five’ UK banks enjoyed in 2010;
- £10 billion: of British taxpayer’s money was paid in indirect subsidy to Barclays
- Lloyds, RBS, HSBC and Nationwide also enjoyed subsidies of £15bn, £13bn, £7bn and £1bn respectively.
The ‘too-big-to-fail’ subsidy for the UK’s largest four banks is 62% higher than the equivalent subsidy in Germany, despite the fact that the German economy is significantly larger.
[New Economics Foundation, Quid Pro Quo, September 2011]
Austerity cuts:
£83 billion: the amount of public sector cuts planned by the government by 2014-15. Effectively cutting the incomes of ordinary people by
- 6.2% for typical families with two young people on modest earnings (£37,000 combined income)
- 4.2% for more well off families with children at university (£78,000 combined income)
- 10.4% the average working lone parent with two children
- 16.2% pensioner couples
The cuts are hitting the poorest hardest according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
[TUC, Where the Money Goes, October 2010:]
Unemployment:
- The economy has lost 2 million jobs since the beginning of the recession.
- 2.57 million people out of work (or 8.1% of working-age population)
- 21.3% of 16-25 year olds out of work. That is almost 1 million young people, the demographic group that has lost out most from the fall in demand for labour.
- 250,000 jobs have been cut in the public sector in the last year.
- Research published by TUC on Monday found that those previously working in the lowest paid jobs make up nearly half of all new unemployed claimants since 2008.
Inequality:
- The top ten percent now have 100 times the wealth of the bottom ten percent.
- The top ten percent earn 4.1 times the incomes of the bottom ten percent, with the top 1 percent more than 10 times. The same figure was 3.1 in 1961.
- The average CEO earns 250 times the average cleaner.
- Levels of social mobility are the lowest among all developed economies.
Sad truth…
Watch the Zeitgeis Addendum movie on youtube. its a good solution to this mess.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Zeitgeist movie offers no realistic alternatives to the problem. It belittles the issue by providing a overwhelmingly bias opinion from the same single producer who believes that 9/11 was an inside job. What a load of crap
The producer distances himself from views featured in the first movie. And prior views shouldn’t affect your opinion of the solutions proposed in addendum. That they are not immediately practical is a fair point. It simply means a transitionary economic model should be sought. My belief is that this should be the goal of the global occupy movement. A political proposition s what Occupy needs. What is should be based on is something different from capitalism. The resource based economy is a good idea and this is undeniable. It is far more efficient than capitalism in almost every respect. I hope you have watched it before undermining it.
Zeitgest contribution to the debate is patchy, but the good bits should not be dismissed. Their view on money is one of the least helpful.
I am fully behind their vision but the means they advocate for getting there need some serious debugging.
Philosopher & ‘anti statist’ Stefan Molyneux provides an interesting analysis of Zeitgeist here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg5K07c72Tw
He accepts many of the premises but ultimately rejects several of the conclusions and proposed solution. It might be worth watching this video in conjunction with many of his vast contributions on youtube under the ‘stefbot’ user name. While Stefan adheres to ‘free market’ principles it is worth investigating what he really means by a free market (e.g. he’s not referring to the type of corporations we have today which are government constructs to limit shareholder liabilities while maximising shareholder value). He also offers interesting ‘free market’ perspectives on money and the creation of money. (e.g. our monetary system is not free in the slightest but a statist / banker monopoly).
What I like about Stefan’s arguments is that they are based on core principles of morality, e.g. the libertarian non-aggression principle. He argues from causes, not from effects. Anyway, well worth a look at his work in my opinion, I don’t necessarily agree with all of his perspectives & conclusions, but I do like his approach to argument.
Don’t be hating on Nationwide, they’re a co-operative society so it’s not really fair to use them as an example of ‘greed’.
Watch the Zeitgeis Addendum movie, Its a good solution to this mess.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Nationwide pretend to have co-operative values but are also screwing their older saving customers by dropping the rates after they have joined. Look beyond the PR campaign and the bob dylan adverts.
Its a dog eat dog world and unless government regulates that the initial “bonus” rates we all seem to love are illegal, the sharp elbowed will always benefit at the expense of the rest.
The “bob dylan adverts” you refer to are for the co-operative bank… who are genuinely a co-operative. Unlike Nationwide.
I can testify to that – I have worked in the Co-operative Food Retail business (Head Office) and have been temping at Co-oper Legal since August (Yes, I am on the bottom rung)
The head of the Co-op Group Umbrella takes home 700k, while the man below him (Peter Marks) takes away around 400k.
The current defence (also used by the banks) for these salaries is that they “need to be high to attract top talent to the business” but that doesn’t really fit with a co-operative model. What would the people of Rochdale in the late 1800′s have said to that kind of un-equal payscales?
Why do you all pick on the bankers but leave off the attack of celebs, footballers and tv hosts who are on just as much (if not more) and have similarly unequal pay structures. Why not camp outside ITV headquarters? Or Manu football stadium? In fact bankers generally add a lot more productivity to an economy than these entertainers!
I am a banker and starting salary of £35k etc, absolutley work my socks off (120 hour weeks often) for the last 5 years now on £70k. If getting to the £1m salary mark is not allowed, why should I bother working hard and trying to achieve more? Don’t you see that when you start taking away the carrots at the end you take away a key incentive to work really hard (btw I grew up on a farm in North Wales where my family had very little money so social mobility has made a difference to my life!).
Will, firstly footballers, celebs, etc did not crash the economy and require huge state subsidy to stay in business. Secondly, if you read the recent statements of Lord Myners then you will see that bankers are not a force for good economically, let alone add ‘productivity’ whatever that means.
If you want to sacrifice your life on the possibility of earning a high salary thats your choice, however if you cause huge damage to the real economy (not the derived, rigged markets you confuse with the real economy ) then expect ordinary people to have something to say – ultimately they are paying for your mistakes. Mistakes that may be related to the city culture of 120 hours a week. How can you expect to a competent job if you’re working those hours?
Finally, you mention carrots, what about sticks? Real capitalism requires that assets managed by failed bodies are re-allocated the other bodies – that hasn’t happened hence its not capitalism but corporate welfare. I think that gives the taxpayer a right to comment on bankers renumeration?
Incidentally well done for taking advantage of the social mobility of moving ‘up’ the scale. Its a shame that turning from a producer of food to being a paper shuffler is seen and rewarded as such.
Interesting details. Now let me give you mine. I too started five years ago – but as a shop assistant. My starting salary was £200 per week. I work very hard starting at 6.00am and do a three week rotating rota of 40 – 50 hours per week. I get no weekends off, no sick pay, and no promotion. Five years later, I have never been sick, late or changed a shift. I now earn £240 per week (whats that – one eighth of your salary), if I get lucky I may get to spend Christmas day with my family, and my holiday entitlement which of course I can’t afford to do much with. Please mister – don’t talk to me about ‘carrots’ of a million pounds – I’ll work till the day I drop and be lucky if I can afford a funeral !
How can you justify anyone earning silly money like 400-700K when there are so many people unable to support tyhemselves or their families by making an honest living working at the moment. That is simply an unjustifyable amount and anyone who earns more needs to seriously take a look at how they can contribute that back into society and create jobs for people! your basic wage of £35k is more than I have ever earnt in a year and I work just as hard as you in the social secotr – fortunatley, when you can see how your hard work has the capacity to change someones life for the better then the COMPLETE LACK of financial reward for our TOUGH SLOG often being technologically under-resourced in this age of technological revolution, and undersupported and certainly not getting the luxuries that you bankers and corporate cogs do. Luckily we value wellbeing and happiness over selfish finiancial gain, common welfare of the masses, together, as GROSSLY MORE IMPORTANT than short sighted greed. Greed will eventually eat iself, but unfortunatey the systems and strutures being implemented mean it will eat many of us on the way. We are here to let you know that we will not be eaten by the greed of the few, we will not be used as a pawn in capitalism, we are human beings with individual choices, minds, lives and rights to exist and to be able to rely on the powers that be to live up to their responisibilities to those underprivilaged, vulnerable and at risk. Do your jobs properly and people wont need to camp out ‘disturbing the peace’ with their peaceful protest in the name of what is just and good. Have some sense and see that the government needs to to whatever is in their power to make education available to everyone, to make a more employaqble country, a more empowered society that values its government, rather than despises it ineptitude in dealing with the most basic human needs, working an honest living to put food on the table, and get somewhere in life.
How much time do you get to be a farmboy from north wales working 120+ hours. How many billions have been used by government to subsidise celebrity culture
To be honest, I think a lot of this is partly misplaced anger. Missing the forest for the trees. High pay in the banking sector is only the symptom of a greater disorder in pay.
Will’s comments about celebrities are fair, though they perhaps relate to banking in a difficult way. We’re talking here about people of talent who are highly valued but only in their field. Footballers score goals. This is no more an achievement than putting together an index-beating portfolio, at least as pay would have us think.
However, Peter who spends his time working his socks off should be far more highly valued too.
The main problem here is the assumed “value” of what people are contributing. This is what needs to be reexamined.
Secondly, the issue of gain and what people are paid. Why is it you need a stupid amount of money to have decent living standards? The most basic approach would be to tackle housing for a start. To little for too many in the UK, which drives up property and rent. And that’s only scratching the surface.
Lastly, why do you want so much money? Again, this can be tackled by answering our second question. Demand outstrips supply, but not because there isn’t supply. Because there is an artificial lack of supply. We can build houses, but we don’t for lack of profit. The profit motive is paralysing our economies.
The argument it empowers it is a red herring. It may do so for individuals and companies, but at a broader level society loses.
Will – sure you ‘work your socks off’ but so do many other people who get paid so much less than you because they don’t live in the right area, or don’t have the qualifications. They might work twice as hard as you and get not even half your pay!
Tom – what if he can’t get a different job? someone has to to jobs like bin men and shop assistants, or your ‘great country’ wouldn’t be able to run! unemployment rates are rising and more and more students are coming out of university/school with good qualifications and going to waste because there are no jobs! something has to be done!
In a company which employs 100 people, say, they work them to the bone until someone gets kicked out – whether its because they’re too ill or old or whatever, it doesn’t matter. The company doesn’t bother employing someone else – no instead they make their former colleagues do their work for no extra pay! how is this fair?
My starting salary in the media was 8k (in 1999) a year for 12 hour days and I often had to work weekends too.
Here are some starting salaries for 2011:
Nurse 13,903
Patient Transport Service (1st step to paramedic)
16,572
Teaching Assistant 10,000
Trainee Firefighter 21,157
SENIOR Carer 6 pounds an hour.
Can you see the discrepancy here??
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk
You can have your carrot.
You can have your holiday.
You can both stop being slaves.
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk
peter the shop assisstant-
Why don’t you change jobs then instead of moaning about yours? All these protestors re the same. They moan and whine that the ‘rich’ rule us and go on about why should they have all the money. Er becasue they work for it! What is wrong with working hard so that you can earn loads of money? If you were a banker and you were given a salary of 200,00 a year would you turn it down and say ‘no, thats not fair, everyone, no matter what thre job should get paid the same’? You have to work and grab chances in this life, if you want to be rich and think you should have more money then it is upto you to do something about it. No point trying to blame other people for your own failings in life, get a grip!
This is the most pointless protest ever, these people don’t realise just hw lucky they are to live in a country like we do. Move to Afghanistan for a week then see how hard they have it here! Idiots!
To Tom,
Surely the idea is that we don’t live our lives through greed, but rather work for a better community, the excessive pay these bankers and celebrities get would be put to better use if it would go towards the NHS or education. It’s not about getting a job with better pay, it’s about everyone contributing to society and making life better for everyone else, not just themselves.
Tom, you’re assuming that every person with a good job has earned their place. It’s becoming increasingly difficult for people to move up the social ladder. A lot of jobs are “who you know” and although I don’t agree with it, meritocracy is not the reality. I’m trying to start a business at the moment but nobody will fund me. Banks aren’t lending, so unless you have the cash, you can’t really do anything. You’ve got to spend money to make money.
Have you seen the pay structure of the Nationwide Board? Looks pretty greedy to me.
Building societies are more moral than banks (they could hardly be less!) but they are infected with the same desease of greed, A director of the Skipton Society quit the Board this year, of his own choice, after working for the society for only a year, yet he was given £280,000 as a going away present. The pay off to Goodwin at RBS wasn’t unusual, directors always get a years salary, at least, when they leave. There’s even a saying for it in the City of London.
‘Workers get laid off, executives get paid off’. You’d think biulding societies would be free of this corruption, but they are not.
Stuff ‘social mobility’. Surly we want a society based on equality of outcome not the opportunity to move up a social class or two!
Watch Zeitgeis Addendum movie, Its a good solution to this mess.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Do you want equality of outcome for people who can’t be bothered and don’t make an effort ?
What happens to the incentive to strive for better.
Look at the old communist states of east europe for your answer and ask yourself i that is your ideal model ?
Who says this movement is striving for the same living conditions as Communist Russia?
Don’t try and tell me that the people earning more than 20 times the wage of the rest of us work 20 times as hard! Their salaries near no relation to their output. They are just figures plucked from the minds of their peers.
This is an excellent article which articulates what the Occupy Movement is about – not anti money, not anti banks but anti downright cheating and discrimination.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025
This just appears to be more poorly thought out student level socialism to me.
Watch the Zeitgeis Addendum movie, Its the solution to this mess.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
What’s your alternative solution?
Hi Chris, what do you mean by ‘This’ exactly? There’s no socialism preached in the stated facts above. These simple, clear facts, listed in numbers. They’ll no qualitative aspect to them.
In reply to chris, you must be in the rich 1 per cent to make that comment, scared for your position,status and money that a real democracy might come along?
Watch the Zeitgeis Addendum movie, Its the solution to this mess
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Even if Chris is rich, why should he give you his money ?
Does the world owe you a living ? Or should you compete and trade equally with others to earn it yourself in a fair and honest way?
Have the bankers earned their money in a “fair and honest way”?
90% of them, yes
There aren’t many people amongst the protesters or in the wider country who would argue against talent and effort yielding greater rewards than ignorance and sloth. The problem I and many others have is the vast gulf between the extremes.
If someone earned double or even triple what someone else earns, that could be defended, but when Person A thinks they’re worth five, ten, twenty times more than Person B, there are clearly some dangerously inflated egos about.
Re: http://occupylsx.org/?page_id=172#comment-299
(a bit less dogmatism, please… at least drop “The” and the capital “T”
Society does owe individual members their share of the *scientific/cultural* heritage on which current wealth-producing opportunities rest. The name of the policy to implement this is *guaranteed subsistence income* (enough for a simple but healthful lifestyle).
Students tend to list the problems but never form a solution just like most protestors. Let the banks fail then see what happens !! There are jobs in the economy to bring the overall level of unemployment down, many 18 -25 yr olds do not have the common sense to look at demand on the labour market, Since the bailout Finance Jobs have increased in the economy, espcially in Debt Recovery, loans and leasing !! Its just a game remember that, if you dont wanna play got to CUBA see how it goes !!
You should watch the Zeitgeis Addendum movie, Its the solution to this mess.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
thats what we need, more debt collectors. superb!
This movement isn’t just ‘students’, it’s people from all walks of like, backgrounds, and generations, so I have no idea where you got that impression yourself. And in fact lists of solutions are being drawn up, if you look the initial statement that was posted on Monday which serves as a foundation to build on and create more specific solutions.
And yes, as the bankers failed and asked the government to bail them out (a Socialist act) and money was taken away from people, debt increased, and employment in debt collection did too. That’s just simple maths. But it doesn’t add up to employment going up.
The only way money gets into your hand is through loans, meaning debt ! So when you say dont bail the banks what your actually saying to the government or the Bank of England is stop printing our means of trade. You students have not read enough books ! We live in a very efficient system, it will never fail !
Please watch the Zeitgeis Addendum movie, Its the solution to this mess.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
thats what we need, more debt collectors. superb!
WE are all so blind to what has been going on at high spheres for centuries…… Ignorant brainwashed pawns or cunning servants of the system
Read this, for instance. It talks about the US but there is no difference; most of the global system is based on that model.
(excerpt from Financial Meltdown: The Greatest Transfer of Wealth in History
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10589)
The Collapse of a 300 Year Ponzi Scheme
All the king’s men cannot put the private banking system together again, for the simple reason that it is a Ponzi scheme that has reached its mathematical limits. A Ponzi scheme is a form of pyramid scheme in which new investors must continually be sucked in at the bottom to support the investors at the top. In this case, new borrowers must continually be sucked in to support the creditors at the top. The Wall Street Ponzi scheme is built on “fractional reserve” lending, which allows banks to create “credit” (or “debt”) with accounting entries. Banks are now allowed to lend from 10 to 30 times their “reserves,” essentially counterfeiting the money they lend. Over 97 percent of the U.S. money supply (M3) has been created by banks in this way.5 The problem is that banks create only the principal and not the interest necessary to pay back their loans. Since bank lending is essentially the only source of new money in the system, someone somewhere must continually be taking out new loans just to create enough “money” (or “credit”) to service the old loans composing the money supply. This spiraling interest problem and the need to find new debtors has gone on for over 300 years — ever since the founding of the Bank of England in 1694 – until the whole world has now become mired in debt to the bankers’ private money monopoly. As British financial analyst Chris Cook observes:
“Exponential economic growth required by the mathematics of compound interest on a money supply based on money as debt must always run up eventually against the finite nature of Earth’s resources.”6
The parasite has finally run out of its food source. But the crisis is not in the economy itself, which is fundamentally sound – or would be with a proper credit system to oil the wheels of production. The crisis is in the banking system, which can no longer cover up the shell game it has played for three centuries with other people’s money. Fortunately, we don’t need the credit of private banks. A sovereign government can create its own.
The New Deal Revisited
Today’s credit crisis is very similar to that facing Franklin Roosevelt in the 1930s. In 1932, President Hoover set up the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC) as a federally-owned bank that would bail out commercial banks by extending loans to them, much as the privately-owned Federal Reserve is doing today. But like today, Hoover’s plan failed. The banks did not need more loans; they were already drowning in debt. They needed customers with money to spend and to invest. President Roosevelt used Hoover’s new government-owned lending facility to extend loans where they were needed most – for housing, agriculture and industry. Many new federal agencies were set up and funded by the RFC, including the HOLC (Home Owners Loan Corporation) and Fannie Mae (the Federal National Mortgage Association, which was then a government-owned agency). In the 1940s, the RFC went into overdrive funding the infrastructure necessary for the U.S. to participate in World War II, setting the country up with the infrastructure it needed to become the world’s industrial leader after the war.
The RFC was a government-owned bank that sidestepped the privately-owned Federal Reserve; but unlike the private banks with which it was competing, the RFC had to have the money in hand before lending it. The RFC was funded by issuing government bonds (I.O.U.s or debt) and relending the proceeds. The result was to put the taxpayers further into debt. This problem could be avoided, however, by updating the RFC model. A system of public banks might be set up that had the power to create credit themselves, just as private banks do now. A public bank operating on the private bank model could fan $700 billion in capital reserves into $7 trillion in public credit that was derivative-free, liability-free, and readily available to fund all those things we think we don’t have the money for now, including the loans necessary to meet payrolls, fund mortgages, and underwrite public infrastructure.
Credit as a Public Utility
“Credit” can and should be a national utility, a public service provided by the government to the people it serves. Many people are opposed to getting the government involved in the banking system, but the fact is that the government is already involved. A modern-day RFC would actually mean less government involvement and a more efficient use of the already-earmarked $700 billion than policymakers are talking about now. The government would not need to interfere with the private banking system, which could carry on as before. The Treasury would not need to bail out the banks, which could be left to those same free market forces that have served them so well up to now. If banks went bankrupt, they could be put into FDIC receivership and nationalized. The government would then own a string of banks, which could be used to service the depository and credit needs of the community. There would be no need to change the personnel or procedures of these newly-nationalized banks. They could engage in “fractional reserve” lending just as they do now. The only difference would be that the interest on loans would return to the government, helping to defray the tax burden on the populace; and the banks would start out with a clean set of books, so their $700 billion in startup capital could be fanned into $7 trillion in new loans. This was the sort of banking scheme used in Benjamin Franklin’s colony of Pennsylvania, where it worked brilliantly well. The spiraling-interest problem was avoided by printing some extra money and spending it into the economy for public purposes. During the decades the provincial bank operated, the Pennsylvania colonists paid no taxes, there was no government debt, and inflation did not result.7
Like the Pennsylvania bank, a modern-day federal banking system would not actually need “reserves” at all. It is the sovereign right of a government to issue the currency of the realm. What backs our money today is simply “the full faith and credit of the United States,” something the United States should be able to issue directly without having to draw on “reserves” of its own credit. But if Congress is not prepared to go that far, a more efficient use of the earmarked $700 billion than bailing out failing banks would be to designate the funds as the “reserves” for a newly-reconstituted RFC.
Rather than creating a separate public banking corporation called the RFC, the nation’s financial apparatus could be streamlined by simply nationalizing the privately-owned Federal Reserve; but again, Congress may not be prepared to go that far. Since there is already successful precedent for establishing an RFC in times like these, that model could serve as a non-controversial starting point for a new public credit facility. The G-7 nations’ financial planners, who met in Washington D.C. this past weekend, appear intent on supporting the banking system with enough government-debt-backed “liquidity” to produce what Jim Rogers calls “an inflationary holocaust.” As the U.S. private banking system self-destructs, we need to ensure that a public credit system is in place and ready to serve the people’s needs in its stead.
Surely thats the problem? Fiat currency is a ponzi scheme – doomed to fail. Why should corporate welfare be a requirement to ensure a means of exchange for the real economy? Sounds to me like blackmail.
I’d suggest you haven’t read enough books – its inefficient and has failed, hence the need for bank bailouts! Until the money supply is brought into public ownership it will continue to fail. Not that I’m a socialist, I believe in free markets and price discovery, which we don’t have at the moment as a result of the fragility of the present debt based system.
Can you guys look at the Zeitgeist addendum movie online. It’s a very good idea. No left or right politics too.
Jay, can you stop pushing zetgeist … you are turning people off from watching it with your persistant whining.
Occupy LSX appears to be Life of Brian with Starbucks and Porta Loos, with Julian Assange as Brian (or maybe even Christ, himself) and Oxbridge students as the cast of thousands… Remember, he’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy…!
Right on brother !
Yes, but unfortunately they won’t piss off!
Are there enough resources to go around? Certainly, but greed dominates the mindset of so many in the 1%. Case in point: Andrey Pogudin is a wealthy banker with RBS in London, and he sued the mother of his child to pay just over 1K USD/mo. in child support – a tiny amount by any banker’s standards. Only Andrey Pogudin, despite his wealth and, more importantly, despite being blessed with the most amazing little boy in the world, has not paid one penny of his child support in over ONE YEAR – NOT ONE PENNY TO SUPPORT HIS OWN SON. When you have a banker who is so willing to let his own flesh and blood, a precious little boy, go without for so long, the greed exhibited by many in the 1% should be no surprise. Let him drown in his greed! His son is happy and has a heart full of kindness and concern for others – no amount of this banker’s money can buy that!
I could cite you the example of many lazy people sat on couches in state funded accomodation not bothering to look for work, watching sky tv and drinking beer paid for by welfare. I won’t paint all people on welfare with that brush though as doubtless many are striving to better themselves and good on them
One example does not a whole industry represent…
I wholeheartedly agree that it may not be fair to characterize an entire industry, in this case banking, by the heartless and irresponsible actions of one banker. In fact, I strongly suspect that most fathers who are bankers support their children and likely do so very well, with care and concern. However, Andrey Pogudin does NOT support his son, has not done so in well over one year, despite his very large RBS salary, his annual RBS bonus and his substantial wealth. His actions are plainly reflective of the sort of greed and callousness that are not only plainly hurtful to his own amazing little boy, but are unfavorable in society at large. If this one banker won’t part with a penny of his substantial wealth and income to provide food, shelter, education, healthcare for his own flesh and blood, one should not be surprised if this one banker’s extreme greed precludes a concern for those in society who are unemployed, forced out of their homes, etc. Whatever the case, he evidently continues to thrive in his career as an RBS banker so the qualities he possesses must be serving him well. Whether he is the exception or the rule is left for others to decide. Despite his extreme neglect, his son will always be lovingly cared for and will always know he is deserving of the greatest respect and concern.
Some food for thought about the “intended” consequences of Quantitative Easing…. “Bank of England’s Quantitative Inflation Bankster’s Paradise Inflationary Depression Economy” see http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article30989.html
And also read these
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2049033/Energy-firms-making-EIGHT-TIMES-customers-June.html#ixzz1awMwL0IL
Buy-to-let is sustaining the housing market: investors look for higher returns, low interest rates on mortgages and increasing demand for rental accomodation allow them to charge as much as they want
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2037746/Rental-prices-accelerate-fastest-pace-year-risen-mammoth-12-London.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/oct/13/families-unable-to-afford-rents
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2048680/Rent-unaffordable-families-parts-England.html
Do you know the work of Ellen Brown? If you feel for a more in-depth read look at “The Web of Debt”
Can we all grasp what is happening here? A major process of wealth redistribution from the masses to a small minority is slowly unfolding.
Does Occupylsx have a clear agenda, a framework for action? To engage with “The Powers that be” we need to be clear on what we want; a list of demands…..
x
Some food for thought
Bank of England’s Quantitative Inflation Bankster’s Paradise Inflationary Depression Economy http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article30989.html
Most tories would agree with this article… so is that the 1% screwing us or defending us now ?
May i remind you Adam Posen – chief labourite economist and Pal of Gordon Brown has been the key person on the MPC arguing for more money printing every month for the last year.
So which side do you guys support? To print or not to print ?
Most politicians, whatever their ideology and party affiliation, would agree with the article but would not admit any of of those facts or do nothing to change the system because they are in the ‘pockets’ of financial institutions and other corporations; the latter are those who put them in power (indirectly by funding their campaigns of lies and supporting them via media propaganda) keep them there or dethrone them if they stop serving their interests.
That Adam Posen is a chief labourite economist does not really mean anything to me. What interests me is the fact that he sits at the BOE with other former or current bankers; the BOE is a PRIVATE FINANCIAL INSITUTION, which, together with other Central Banks respond to the Bank of Int. Settlements in Switzerland. This global financial network rules the world. The BOE ultimate mandate is to maintain the status quo and protect the interests of the banking system.
How come all the money that has been ‘printed’ so far has failed to stimulate the economy (apart from supporting the housing market; i.e. landowners interests and banks’ mortgage bad debt; and the stock market)? Where did all this money go? Why has it not been used to fund public work and help small/medium businesses (which are still struggling to access credit)?
The liquidity is not circulating in the economy, it has gone to inflate assets prices (oil, metals, housing, stock exchanges; land); where is the productivity there?
Nationalise the banks and start lending to small/medium businesses; improve transportation; build houses. Do away with outrageous tax breaks (latest news http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2049496/Vodafone-pays-just-1-400-tax-profits-3-5bn.html)
An alternative economic model? That the governments issue the money not private central banks; but this would never happen least the outbreak of a global war unleashed by those who detain the real power: Banksters.
DEMANDS (1) Repatriate & Tax the $18 trillion in tax-havens (OECD 2010). This is 25 years surplus from the Real Economy. It will pay all global deficits. (2) Cap Interest on Credit Cards & all Loans at 5% a year; to greatly reduce all prices, pay-off household debt and supercharge the economy. Thatcher & Reagan removed the previous interest cap from Usury Laws.
Can you not see the filth of the game? Private central banks issue money that governments borrow with an interest and that they used to bail-out private banks! The private debt has been socialised. I do not know where you get you facts, but what you are alluding below re: the special liquidity scheme is wrong. The BOE have issued government bonds (on which the government will have to pay interests) that the banks have swaped for their toxic (ie running with a loss) financial instruments. Then they sell these bonds to release cash. Who is going to ‘hold the bag’ at the end?
Mate, I agree with you about socialising losses
The SLS is a different case altogether and is being paid back.
Gordon Brown stacked the MPC with arch doves who wanted to print money. Tories generally hate this… who gets screwed ? savers
The BOE is mainly accepting Gilts in return for the money printed so not the toxic crap you mention.
The ECB is however accepting the toxic crap and that will come back to bite them
This discussion is pointless unless conducted by competent and knowledgeable people who can really explain what has been going on behind the smoke and mirrors presented to us by the media, politicians and those economists who work for, maintain and reproduce the system. Most of us ‘commoners’ do not have a clue.
I wish this movement can grow into a coherent and organised party capable of uncovering the truth, awakening the masses and to propose specific demands for change (some, at least).
These are some famous quotes:
“The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it’s profits or so dependant on it’s favors, that there will be no opposition from that class.” — Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863
“Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes it’s laws” — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning”.
Henry Ford
Also look at these as examples
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2037746/Rental-prices-accelerate-fastest-pace-year-risen-mammoth-12-London.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2049033/Energy-firms-making-EIGHT-TIMES-customers-June.html
Can we all grasp what is happening? A major process of wealth redistribution from the masses to small minorities is unfolding.
Do Occupyslx have a clear agenda, a framework of action? To engage with “The powers that be” we need to know what we want; a list of specific demands
Twice I have tried to post a comment with other links and some questions to you all; but it is not showing… are you blocking it?
I am asking if Occupyslx has a clear agenda, a framework for action because we need one to engange with “The powers that be”. What do we want?
Are the following suggestions deemed of value?
http://queenbee-insidethehive.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-advice-to-occupy-wall-street.html
Suggested reading as starting point
“The Web of Debt” by Ellen Brown
C’mon people it’s not rocket science to know we need a break up of the banks into smaller more competitive ones, we also need the big corporates out of our government no more paying for election funds etc a clear and decisive line. We need out of the corrupt EU who has refused to be audited, the power put back in the hands of the people…
A whole new way of thinking and reacting in this world is very much needed.
Guys – to the rest of the world you come across as the usual bunch of amateurish hippies, student protesters and union agitators. Fact is more people were in the stadium watching Man U v Liverpool on Saturday than came along to support you.
Couple of facts for you. The bank bailout is on course TO BE PAID BACK within a year or two under the special liquidity scheme. The share ownership of Lloyds & RBS and Northern Rock we will probably sell at some point in the future at a breakeven – so no loss to the public.
Bailouts are unconnected to cuts. Bailout were held off balance sheet as Assets (as they are being paid back). We built up high spend (welfare and NHS in particular) on the back of a debt inflated bubble and were caught napping when the bad debts came home to roost and demand dropped. Labour should have cut back then as admitted by Blair and Darling but didn’t. Our national debt is still increasing at the rate of £150 BILLION a year. Ever wonder who will have to pay that back if we don’t? That’s our kids we are selling down the river to fund your welfare… Think the Chinese and Saudis will keep on lending to us forever if there is no credible plan to pay it back.
And for christ-sake what is all this 1% and 99% balls…
The rest of the public’s message to you is accept your part in the responsibility of living within our means as a country and stop looking for others to blame all the time. It would be much better for the country if you turned your energy towards setting up a world beating export business to help us trade our way out of debt rather than setting up pointless tent cities outside St Pauls.
very poor excuses for a failing system and trying to blame poor people for it rather than facing the TRUTH that it was the top 1% who caused the majority of us to suffer
By definition if you call the government the top 1%, then of course they are responsible.
You share some accountability though because you live in a democracy and you elected them !
“You share some accountability though because you live in a democracy and you elected them !”
You do yourself a disservice with such a nonsense generalisation. No, not me, but I accept that the existing Govt came as a result of that election.
More than practical goals, it’s simply the inequality, and the lack of humility that is being protested. TheTruth, I personally don’t see a problem with bailing out banks on the principle that the money is repaid, and in a vibrant economic climate you noted that there was very little active protest about banker’s wages.
But we’re in an age of austerity. Yet in reality, now, today, and over the next 4 years, “austerity” is making genuinely disadvantaged people poorer, and wealthy people richer.
So it’s not “austerity”. It’s a redistribution.
If you can’t see that, or are too shy/embarrassed/unempathetic to admit to seeing that simple fact, then it goes beyond “what a shame” to questioning at what point your politics do extend to understanding others outside of financial rhetoric?
I’d be pleased to hear you clarify.
But on what grounds to redistribute… because people want it or genuinely need it. Very very few people genuinely need it that couldn’t help themselves if they tried hard.
Our problem is that the welfare state gives benefits to people who can no longer be bothered and perniciously drives them to perpetual dependance.
Investment bankers should get paid less, I agree with you on that. But you either allow the market to place a value on a skill or you don’t and that same argument should extend to lawyers, doctors, accountants, footballers, tv stars etc and also contractors, company owners. Would you regulate them to ?
Is your beef that people earn more ? Or that the poor aren;t getting enough? And how do you strike a balance between reward for hard effort and disincentive…
“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
An oft quoted comment proven true by the size of our national debts today and followed by labour every time they got into power. Remember it well !
If we are all sitting on our backsides living off welfare how come there is 16 Billion in unclaimed welfare??
Jobseekers get 60 pounds a week to live on. I would love to see an MP try and live on that. I have a friend on welfare he spends his spare time as a volunteer. He is living on 4000 a year.
I have an MA, I’m self employed and have earned 150 pounds in the last two months. I also am a volunteer. I check job sites everyday and make an average of at least 15 job applications a week. Most jobs advertised in my sector (the media) are for low or no pay. All to often I seen adverts for cinematographers for 50 a day or expenses only. My camera cost me 2000. I’ve been working for free just to avoid a gap in my CV. ITS A JOKE.
There aren’t enough jobs for all of us, they are being cut left right and centre.
Remember this is a minority government – the Conservatives only got 36.1% of the vote in 2010.
When the banks repay the money taken from taxpayers who will it go to? The taxpayers or the Govt?
Thank you Occupy for giving us a forum to properly debate these issues.
I agree completely with the desires of the protest. It’s a protest I hope will gain momentum and be well shaped by humble people and their own real, grass roots stories. It’s time that the people had a voice, we’re all sick of being spoon fed our murdock filtered news and processed ideas about what’s needed to get through the financial baggage left behind by toxic debts. For the What’s missing from the draft statement is a bit of humility on our own part, this system may be corrupt but let’s not be so arrogant as to portray ourselves as blameless in all this. All of us who bought the capitalist dream of furnishing our homes and lives with pointless crap on higher purchase at rock bottom prices have directly contributed to this global injustice. Just because we want change because we’re finally hurting and see why revolution is needed, doesn’t mean we’re in the clear morally, this is our mess to! I believe its also essential that the way in which this protest is led and conducted exemplifies the kind of change we seek. I pray those who turned student protests into a property destruction contest stay well away from this. We need to model the change we seek! Therefore a subversive, counter cultural, anti status quo, prophetic mandate should be agreed to preserve the purity of this demo which may in time, actually ignite more than a change to the financial structures which have the political world by the throat but also create the sdynamics for a shift towards a more compassionate society. Greed has made us all ugly, self centred, cold and potential abusers, are we ready to humble ourselves and change? If and only if we can answer this can we strive with one mind for a new system of finance.
To be honest the main thing we cocked up was an inability to value bad debts correctly and making loans to people who couldn’t afford it. Hence sub prime, ninja (no income, no job and no assets) loans and a whole heap of structured products that nobody could value the bad debt on. The banks and the regulators and the government were complicit. Also the people in taking on debts they couldn’t afford
We entered a debt fuelled bubble thinking we had solved economic growth issues and upped government spending to unsustainable levels. It is coming home to roost and painful as it is we must deal with the consequences.
Sure the banks, regulators and governments were complicit; our monetary system is based on DEBT (see my post above) and without it it could not continue. We have all been ‘educated’ to think it is OK to take up loans to feed our never-ending wants; bombarded by adverts about any possible gadgets, hedonistic life-styles ,etc. Costs to satisfy basic necessities like good quality food, education, heating, or housing are so high compared to most people’s incomes that many are also forced to take up loans. Have you ever asked yourself why the cost of living is extremely high in this country? There are also those who thought could play the same game as the banks and borrowed large amounts to invest; e.g. buy-to-let. Some succeded, some did not.
In varying degrees we are all serfs and that is they way THEY want us to be.
The financial meltdown, however, is more the consequences of the fact that banks sold over and over again the same debt liabilities packed up in financial structured products to other banks and investors.
You basically said what TheTruth said, but angrier.
There is a very important distiction: he/she attributes it to financial ‘mismanagement’, I see it as the inevitable consequence of the functioning of our monetary system. Chris Cook (quoted in the article posted above)
“Exponential economic growth required by the mathematics of compound interest on a money supply based on money as debt must always run up eventually against the finite nature of Earth’s resources.”
Hence “the collapse of the Ponzy Scheme”
Absolutely agree, I bought into the system during the good times even though I was always aware of the effects of western consumerism on the rest of the world. I am still doing ok for the moment, I am one of the lucky ones, but I want a better future for my kids and their kids. I do not want them to live in a world where private wealth reigns supreme and education and the NHS have been privatised. I do not want them to live in the world of continuous war that has now become normality. Although I accept my own culpability in allowing myself to be bought off I am sick of seeing the wealthy and powerful of this world get away with genocide and larceny. I see the Occupy movement as an attempt to wake the populace and encourage us all to envisage alternatives to this monstrous system that exploits everything as a commodity, even nature and the essentials that human beings require to survive. The exploitation must cease for own survival and the sooner we realise that our consumerist lives must change drastically to make it so the better for humanity.
the fact is, history has proven time and time again that change is ignited by passionate minorities not the apathetic masses. u may be small in number but keep believing!
But what do you believe in ?
There is a rag tag mix of people by St Pauls. Socialist Workers, UK uncut representatives (unions), people who lie to give two fingers to authority, posh bored students with their iphones who thing protesting is cool and anarchic crusty hippies that adopt protesting as a way of life.
Tell me it isn’t so…
Where is your coherent vision of an alternative economic model ? One that will actually work rather than one that just involved paying you more benefits or not cutting public sector jobs ?
Truth, you are half right about the camp. Sure there are socialist workers and career protestors involved and they play as valuable a part as you do. It also stands to reason that the majority of people will not be able to camp at St Pauls as they have jobs and responsibilities that prevent it (aside from space limitations), but the movement does have a great deal of support from many people who are not able to camp for extended periods. The camps are a focal point for a much wider movement. For my part, I took annual leave from work to stay at the camp for a few days to help and support where I could.
I’m not an economist and don’t have all the answers, but I can see the system failing. I’m sure there are enough intelligent people in the world that, together, we can find a workable alternative to the existing system which is failing so many people. It is good that you are taking an active interest in the movement and I hope you will continue to contribute towards finding the solution. Big Love
The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei was at one time such a passionate minority.
Rebuttal of your facts:
Bank bail-outs:
The Bank of England estimates that the total costs of bailing out the financial system is £1.3tr, or more than 10 times the entire NHS budget.
>>That presume everyone with a northern rock or B&B mortgage won’t pay it back….which isn’t true I hope. So why is your anger not directed at these two institutions which represent to bulk of the bailout… if these assets are sold off at the cost they were bought at which is not unreasonable given we got fire sale prices, it won’t have cost us anything.
3 years on the British government continues to subsidise ‘too big to fail banks’ banks:
£46 billion: the combined subsidy the ‘Big Five’ UK banks enjoyed in 2010;
£10 billion: of British taxpayer’s money was paid in indirect subsidy to Barclays
Lloyds, RBS, HSBC and Nationwide also enjoyed subsidies of £15bn, £13bn, £7bn and £1bn respectively.
The ‘too-big-to-fail’ subsidy for the UK’s largest four banks is 62% higher than the equivalent subsidy in Germany, despite the fact that the German economy is significantly larger.
[New Economics Foundation, Quid Pro Quo, September 2011]
>>Most of this will be paid off within 2 years (with interest) so then you will have nothing to complain about. New economics foundation by the way are a leftist think tank.
Austerity cuts:
£83 billion: the amount of public sector cuts planned by the government by 2014-15. Effectively cutting the incomes of ordinary people by
6.2% for typical families with two young people on modest earnings (£37,000 combined income)
4.2% for more well off families with children at university (£78,000 combined income)
10.4% the average working lone parent with two children
16.2% pensioner couples
The cuts are hitting the poorest hardest according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
[TUC, Where the Money Goes, October 2010:]
>>What you are talking about here is adjusted for inflation which the socialists are actually arguing for with more money printing . It is only hitting the poorest hardest as it is hitting those on welfare the hardest and a large chunk of those could get off the their bums and take the jobs the poles seem to have taken in our restaurants or agricultural industries. Child benefit was cut on the rich, capital gains tax was increased on the rich, the 50p tax rate was kept, the tax allowance was raised at the bottom end of the scale for the poor and the minimum wage has also just increased a little
Unemployment:
The economy has lost 2 million jobs since the beginning of the recession.
2.57 million people out of work (or 8.1% of working-age population)
21.3% of 16-25 year olds out of work. That is almost 1 million young people, the demographic group that has lost out most from the fall in demand for labour.
250,000 jobs have been cut in the public sector in the last year.
Research published by TUC on Monday found that those previously working in the lowest paid jobs make up nearly half of all new unemployed claimants since 2008.
Inequality:
The top ten percent now have 100 times the wealth of the bottom ten percent.
The top ten percent earn 4.1 times the incomes of the bottom ten percent, with the top 1 percent more than 10 times. The same figure was 3.1 in 1961.
The average CEO earns 250 times the average cleaner.
Levels of social mobility are the lowest among all developed economies.
>>This top 10% generate much of the wealth that pays for the rest of us. The richest 1% pay 40% of our taxes for example… Ever heard the parable of the golden goose?
The Occupy movements are heartening to one who has been an activist on this issue for over 15 years. We are on the verge of a new economy with distributed internet-based manufacturing and robotics and this paradigm shift has already begun. Guaranteed Minimum Income is the right of every citizen in the forthcoming post scarcity economy and should extend to every person in what is currently the Second and Third Worlds.
Support for all!
Star A Star
==
Here are some fantastic diagrams on wealth distribution in USA – highly recommended
http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4
Click on “click here for bigger chart” and go through the 16 charts!
See also:
http://ecolocalizer.com/2010/04/12/plutocracy-reborn-wealth-inequality-gap-largest-since-1928/
==
TAX THE SUPER RICH!
==
GUARANTEED MINIMUM INCOME
Guaranteed Minimum Income – stage I – 2015 – to replace unemployment benefits
Stage I tax scheme – to be funded in part from 10% tax on manufacturing by (non-home) 3D printers
Guaranteed Minimum Income – stage II – 2020 – to replace all benefits and encompass those ineligible for benefits
Stage II tax scheme – to be funded from 50% tax on assemblers* (programmable nanotechnology manufacturing units, i.e. advanced 3D assemblage) – to be distributed equally to each citizen **
[note that at this stage - starting in 2015 - 3D printers will have already provided cheap $2000-$50,000 household humanoid robotics due to the currently developing ability of 3D printers to print electronic circuitboards]
* also known as “molecular assemblers” (Wikipedia) or “nanofactories
** estimated time by Eric Drexler (1986) for assembler proliferation is 6 months, so a political apparatus must be in place prior to this event to ensure social stability
Unknown to me so far but very interesting… I will look into it and ponder… even more. Thanks.
If yoiu need any more proof that we have to change,just read this wonderful letter from an ex hedge fund manager. Andrew tells us how he played the system. We can stop this kind of abusive parasitic behaviour with proper regulations in place. There have already been a few good suggestions floated in the media. Things like separating risk investment tax from socially services. Article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/18/banking-useconomy
I think recently a bunch of rich people in America called on Obama for higher taxes on the rich as well! When society on all levels calls for it we know its a real issue!
Sweet blog! I found it while surfing around on Yahoo News. Do you have any suggestions on how to get listed in Yahoo News? I’ve been trying for a while but I never seem to get there! Many thanks
I agree these are serious issues however i don’t understand why only the problems taken into account here are economical. personally i see the lack of ethics in most industries a serious problem, equal, if not more important to these here. there’s sweat shops, animal cruelty, poisoning crops with poison, creating mass amounts of waste, a ridiculous consumer culture that damaging the earth and live of this planet. i know i sound like some hippy, but we should be respecting the world we live in, not damaging it for the sake of green and money and those problems should be faced just as well as the financial meltdown that the world has come to.
Completely agree Pixie, it’s time to bring all the issues together because they are all interlinked in any case.
If you’d like a little fun at bankers expense, metaphorically at least, there’s a little tale you may find amusing here,
http://financialdeath.blogspot.com/
better add that the story on that blog is entirely fiction, and any similarity to real life bankers is entirely wishful thinking.
The first battle has been won – the occupation is established!
Arm yourself with knowledge to change the world. The root cause of the global economic problem is the legitimised fraud of modern banking and privately controlled central banks:
The Mystery of Banking by Murray Rothbard – essential reading
http://mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf
Money As Debt – essential viewing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544
The Money Masters – essential viewing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936
Publicly-owned Banks as an Instrument of Economic Development: The German Model
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27054
Further resources: http://www.outersite.org
The existing economic and political system is incapable of developing a sustainable future. We need a need monetary system and a new form of politics.
Thank you Clive for these references. I fully agree with your statements (see my previous posts).
Clive,
powerful stuff; much needed to support what I tried to say in my clumsy way…
Those videos explain the problems so well and simply
Maybe “Money as Debt” and “Money Masters” should be played over a big screen at St. Paul?
If you agree that the root cause of the problems we are facing is the present monetary system please vote for this statement in the policy manifesto of Occupy Britain:
“Everytime we use a credit card or bailout a bank etc more debt is created and piled on to the already £1Trillion debt load (thanks to Fractional Reserve Banking and payed off by taxes which is making us poorer). Therefore we need DEBT-FREE MONEY.”
http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=f76a0&t=f76a0.40&o=20
http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/news/
Occupy Wiki – Manifesto
If you’ve never edited a wiki before, there’s never been a better time to start. Get involved!
How to take part:
1. Submit your idea for a policy or manifesto: http://bit.ly/DirectDemocracy – share with friends!
2. Vote on as many ideas as you can
3. Add detail, data, arguments for/against, references, and structure to the policy ideas using Wikipedia model
4. Implement the popular policies to our Manifesto page
5. Repeat this process until the tools laid out above change it.
Vote
http://www.google.com/moderator/#9/e=f76a0&g=monetary+system
“I believe that the Occupy London Stock Exchange should adopt the policy of rejecting the monetary system and implementing a resource-based economy, which would focus on the well-being of humankind.”
Other statements
“There needs to be a restructuring of the current economic AND parliamentary systems. Separate Government from the financial sector so that there really aren’t any conflicts of interest. Re-nationalise the money supply.”
Sorry that should read “we need a NEW monetary system
Hi there! Someone in my Facebook group shared this website with us so I came to give it a look. I’m definitely enjoying the information. I’m bookmarking and will be tweeting this to my followers! Exceptional blog and excellent style and design.
Have you ever considered about including a little bit more than just your articles? I mean, what you say is fundamental and all. However think about if you added some great images or videos to give your posts more, “pop”! Your content is excellent but with pics and clips, this website could definitely be one of the best in its field. Excellent blog!
FYO
“Harrods and Poundland both reported record results this week.
That nicely sums up the state of the global economy right now. It also explains, in a nutshell, what all this ‘Occupy Wall Street’ stuff is about.
The mega-rich have more money than ever before. Everyone else has less. And the general feeling – rightly or wrongly – is that governments and central banks are happy to subsidise and protect the wealthy, while everyone else tightens their belts.” (moneymorning.co.uk and they are everything BUT left-wing!)
See also
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2048680/Rent-unaffordable-families-parts-England.html
Can we all grasp what it is happening?
There would be so much to talk about and to reform….
“Outraged&Disheartened” I’ve been reading your comments + replies with increasing interest. I came to them via the OccupyLSX website on my mobile phone.
I wholeheartedly agree with U that there must be some co-ordinated & informed response. There’s just way too much noise & ill informed nonsense on the web, blogs, Twitter, etc.
Being relatively new to the net & social media I’m not yet completely literate in how to understand & use them. So please excuse me if this seems a silly question.
Do you have a Twitter name, Facebook page, website, blog that I can follow? If so, please reply here with a link or links…
Many Thanks!
Hi PeeWaks
Thank you very much for reading my posts and finding them of interest.
I am sorry to disappoint you but I do not have a Facebook page (not one that I mantain) or blog. I am just an ordinary person who has been doing some research to try and understand the state of affairs. I am not even able to articulate my thoughts very well because it is all very complicated; deliberately fuzzy; with unimaginable ramifications and consequences and am not trained as an economist. I have been wondering how long it would have been before ordinary people like me started questioning and went protesting. But how to translate informed knowledge in action for change? I hope something positive can be achieved.
There is a lot of information around (the empowering value of the internet!!) but it is difficult to distinguish good from bad and to decide what to believe and not believe. To quote from the foreword to the book “The Web of Debt” by E. Brown, which has been written by a banker himself: “[...] I can report that even most bankers are not aware of what goes on behind closed doors at the top of their field.” [...] “The process by which money comes into existence is throughly misunderstood, and for good reasons: it has been the focus of a highly sophisticated and long-term disinformation campaign that permeates academia, media, and publishing. The complexity of the subject has been intentionally exploited to keep its mysteries hidden.”
I will continue to post links to articles that I find informative but, forgive me, I am not able to do more than that; at least at this moment in time. I am still going through a process of discovery and might even unwittingly give the wrong interpretation of what I read.
One word of advice, question everything even what you were taught to believe and do not take anything for granted.
O+D,
Many thanx 4 your response. I will ce rtainly check of the book U quote. I C U recommended it in an earlier post from yesterday.
I, too, find myself in a similar position. Wise advice U give. I wish more would question… EVERYTHING. I am always hungry for knowledge but approach all things in a skeptical way. Real, objective, rational, evidence- based questioning it what sadly lacks in our modern society.
I wish more people would stop choosing other peoples arguments based on what suits their ill informed opinion. Opinion is ok…. Evidence, cross-referenced & rational objective debate is best. But that’s a bias of my own love of logical, math/science background I suppose.
Thank You, Let’s hope this anger, disillusionment, & (far too often) hopelessness brings calls for change, for justice, honesty & more transparency.
My best wishes & kind regards. -P
A must read
UK Inflation Accelerates to CPI 5.2%, Bankrupt Britain’s Stealth Debt Default Continues http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article31032.html
Please circulate the link as much as possible
And the author is not a labour supporter nor a socialist, far from it (this info is for those who posted above and ridiculed the movement, the motivations behind and always talk in terms of party politics and ideologies)…. he is a wealthy investor supportive of the capitalist sytem and so-called ‘free-market’ economy
Wish List
1.A minimum living wage. At least £12 an hour
2. A maximum working week of 30 hours
2.The U.K is overcrowded affecting everyones quality of life we need to reduce population of the U.K over next 100 years by disincentivising families who have more than 1 child through higher taxation.
3. We need to end the physical segregation between rich and poor by first dismantling sink estates and building mixed communities
4.We need to end the something for nothing culture. If you are unemployed. voluntary work for a charity must be compulsory.
3. Change planning system in favour of communities. So supermarkets like Tescos are allowed to continuely reapply for planning permission.
4. Change the penal system so criminals can work and pay back victims.
…just an observation but it always amazes me that housing schemes continually come up against strong resistance from locals but those piffling, awful looking shopping malls (you know the ones with a carpet warehouse, fast food joint and discount shoe shop) pop up almost overnight with few complaints!
I watched The Secret of Oz but Bill Still and to reform the system from the core, we need to petition and ask for public inquires. The government has an online petition site where you can make your vote count. It’s not designed to be easily search but I’ve found a list of petitions which I think should be considered. We need to raise more then 100,000 signatures per petition. Search their e-petition database and make yours count!
Control of issuing the money supply be removed from the Bank of England and Placed in the hands of government to make interest free loans http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5936
Create a Post Office Bank http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6358
Prohibit any future UK bank bailouts http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/3972
Charge the bankers responsible for the collapse http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/13094
Cancel all public debts created by the bank bailouts and jail the banksters http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/9766
Public Enquiry into credit rating agencies http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5709
Abolish the Banks’ Ability to Create Money http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5539
The Right of life without a bank account http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/13340
The Break Ups of Cartels and Monopolies http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5869
One shareholder one vote in all company ballots http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/4864
Public enquiry into lloyds takeover of HBOS http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/11965
Launch Inquiry into Utility Companies http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/3257
Call for British Government to work for worldwide banking reforms http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6480
Thank you Ocka for the very useful information. I will look at those petitions right now.
>>That presume everyone with a northern rock or B&B mortgage won’t pay it back….which isn’t true I hope. So why is your anger not directed at these two institutions which represent to bulk of the bailout… if these assets are sold off at the cost they were bought at which is not unreasonable given we got fire sale prices, it won’t have cost us anything.
>>Most of this will be paid off within 2 years (with interest) so then you will have nothing to complain about. New economics foundation by the way are a leftist think tank.
That’s the complacent type of attitude that caused the problem in the first place. We’re now holding a huge amount of investment risk that we hope can be paid off but what if it can’t? It would only take a housing/asset price crash precipitated by sovereign defaults in Europe or a crash in China and the resulting higher unemployment to devastate the bank’s balance sheets. Will they be paying it back then? No, they’ll be back begging for more bailouts.
The truth is the banks have been and still are, on the beneficial end on an asymmetric risk/reward ratio (and we’re on the wrong end of it!). The current system is not a true capitalist system, if it was then the banks would have been allowed to fail and Shumpeter’s “gales of creative destruction” would have been allowed to take effect. This vital process has been denied and we could be in for years or even decades of financial dislocation because the risks are simply getting transferred rather than removed.
The real solution is to create a new system that truly allows banks to fail without it causing systemic risk instead of one that cossets them. The current system is simply inequitable in whatever way you want to look at and maybe the protests will be the impetus to change it.
Oh, and regarding the quote; “The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” is equally applicable to the bank’s version of “capitalism”.
I have just been down to the Occupylsx protest at St Paul’s and found a growing community alive with debate – actual people talking face to face that is – and brimming with enterprise.
This blog looks good too – all the themes are there, expressed, rehashed, rebutted and dissected. And the debate is expanding.
Much of the focus is on the banks – because of the eye watering sums involved in propping them up as speculative bubbles popped/economic cycles topped out in 2006-8, and the subsequent drastic deterioration in the public finances which ensued. Banking and finance are by nature technical and esoteric – very few people have the education and disposition to master the detail and the practical application of the ideas involved. Many bankers are therefore by definition masters not only of reasoned debate around the financial system, it’s problems and the solutions applied but also, by default, obfuscation since they have a vested interest in sustaining the status quo which is based on the search for short term profits all comfortingly underwritten by national and supra-national institutions and imbued with moral hazard because, as they suspected and subsequently found out, when the crunch comes the LOSSES are SOCIALISED. When the good times are rolling however and the profits are stacking up the PROFITS are PRIVATISED and accrue to the shareholders and balance sheets of the banks. There is an asymmetry here which is ethically impossible to defend.
Lady Shriti Vadera, Gordon Brown’s pitbull of a minister, has gone on record as saying that they had to save the banks, not for their own sake but IN ORDER TO SAVE THE ECONOMY. Cold comfort but she was spot on. And therein lies the rub.
Banking is in many ways a social good – much of which may indeed be best carried out by private enterprises – however THESE banks are run not in the slightest for the benefit of society and WAY too much for the benefit of, NO – not shareholders – their EMPLOYEES. Which brings us onto the whole icky mess of a question around bonuses which I am going to leave well alone.
Banks need to be run more for the benefit of society as a whole – and unfortunately this bust has shown us that the only way to ensure that is by intervening in THE MARKET – simply because it does not do what society needs it to. Why, because all markets, unless sufficiently competitive, will naturally tend toward oligopoly/monopoly. A good indication of how this has happened in global finance is A) the level of profits available to the major players and B) the lack of new entrants to the markets concerned.
BUT banks are a quagmire for debate – they are a problem, and disagree with that at your peril these days – whereas I think the real issue at stake here is the total inadequacy of financial and political institutions. Witness the chaotic scenes in the US and Europe recently as major decisions on Sovereign debt and Government budgets were hijacked or paralysed by political trench warfare or lack of leadership and imagination.
And this is where the OCCUPY movements come in. They do not need to be ideologically perfect, educated to MBA level, schooled in technical debate, logically consistent or dressed in a suit and tie. The wisdom of crowds is oft underrated. Leaders around the world know this and decent political operators understand that the masses must be listened to. The social fabric is beginning to fray in some alarming ways around the developed world. People are asking questions and having discussions they may never have had – because they know that things are broken which need fixing. The basic tenets of Free Market Capitalist ideology have been wiped from the slate in the last 3 years: the concept of rational economic agents acting on aggregate to produce the outcome with the greatest social utility being the most obvious and indisputable example. Alan Greenspan himself was aghast to see that the banks would indeed let themselves go down. He had believed the economic theory that the owners and managers of such businesses would not, as a collective, take decisions which could ultimately lead to their economic demise. But at Lehman Brothers they found otherwise.
The economy and polity is not up to the job. People know it and from this knowledge comes the energy to make our elites and leaders take responsibility for fixing the problems. Indeed, protest can lend legitimacy and weight to ideas where these may be lacking. This is all we need to know at the moment.
Come on OCCUPY!
Great stuff Jake.
I know it’s an old chestnut but I think one the most fundamental things about this is that the financial and political elite need to be humbled and realise that they are not the masters of society, they are it’s servants. We should no longer tolerate this propping up of a morally and functionally illegitimate and undemocratic status quo at the expense of the global majority. I personally see the three major parties in our own country as morally bankrupt and they certainly do not represent me. So in the absence of any viable option at the ballot box I must in all good conscience support other means to kickstart the dialogue we so desperately need.
As you say, I am not educated to MBA level, schooled in technical debate, do not dress in a suit and tie and I am probably not logically consistent! I am an ordinary working man and the only qualification I required to get my job was a driving license.
I just hope enough other people like me can understand how desperate things could become if they don’t get off their backsides and make a stand.
So, yes, OCCUPY!
p.s. I was at St Pauls at the weekend and managed to speak to a few real people face to face! I recommend anybody who can to get down there and to support the good people holding the space with donations for their needs.
3342691 beers on the wall. sck was here
My developer is trying to convince me to move to .net from PHP. I have always disliked the idea because of the expenses. But he’s tryiong none the less. I’ve been using Movable-type on various websites for about a year and am worried about switching to another platform. I have heard fantastic things about blogengine.net. Is there a way I can transfer all my wordpress posts into it? Any kind of help would be greatly appreciated!
Bit of a rant here, please forgive me
I think it is more helpful to focus on the alternatives and try sell it to people than to try blame every single corporate entity that makes a profit. In simple terms I’d drive for Standard of Living over GDP as the “key performance indicator” of a government,.
The issue for me is one of GDP ruling every government decision and the chronic underselling of our country. I’m sick to the back teeth of hearing that “if we don’t do this, they will go overseas”. No. London is prestigious – having Head Offices in London is a boon to most business, especially the financial industrial – it is utter poppycock to suggest that we have to give these concessions in order to survive globally.
We were told back in the 80′s that closing down the industry (mines, shipbuilding etc) was cost efficent as it was cheaper to buy from overseas – this was an utter falsehood, and the cost of propping up 10% of the working population who will NEVER work again , along with the crime, social stigma and broken families, far outweighed any short term benefit.
Given that the politicians are supposed to be working for the people, why is it that we are aiming for economic targets only. GDP is not, despite many peoples beliefs , tied to the average standard of living. I’m sure the tories would love to continue to push ordinary people into the stock exchange (see the change in pensions over the past 10 years or so) to justify it.
I’m wary of using the 1% etc arguement, but think it is safe to say that 80% of wealth is with 10% of people and these people are all nicely invested in the stock exchange, unfortunately these are also the people who vote and financially back electoral candidates and their parties.
The whole idea of year on year growth is infantile too. RESOURCES ARE FINITE – WANTS ARE INFINITE. everyone can’t have everything they want.
We live in a society where it is the norm for a child to carry a £300 gadget with them (IPhone) -, what more evidence do we need of the deep penetration that greed and marketing have had on our society,
The FTSE and all other stock exchanges reflect the “prospective” value of companies based on individual dealers predictions on the future prosperity of a country – so therefore the company is never “worth” what is projected (or rarely is) So in my view, its all a bit of a falsehood.
Standard of living, in my opinion , should be the benchmark for a countries well being – given that foreign industry and foreign shareholders benefit for the UK GDP, not UK citizens exclusively.
Our own treasury just 6 months ago, needed time to explain whether we owed the UK standard of BILLION, or the US Standard. (they agreed on the US Standard)
So that’s great news then right, we owe 1000 times less? If not, then why is our treasury the UK treasury, not using UK figures and standards in its own publications, but I digress.
I believe this link also debuffs the “We will be repaid by the banks in 2 years”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6647703/why-our-national-debt-went-up-by-1300-billion-today.thtml
I’ll get off my soapbox. But please guys, I’m sure you’ll get more join you with a coherant mission statement and aim, that is acheivable.
Shamefully though, I doubt anything will happen unless we have disorder
Yes, that is also what I have called for: a coherent action plan supported by clear statements and accessible information otherwise the impetus risks of dissipating; the movement will be ‘infiltrated’ and manipulated by reactionary forces to create panic, havoc and provide justifications to opinions such as those expressed by HE Read, Promotor Fidei and The Truth above.
‘Yes, that is also what I have called for: a coherent action plan supported by clear statements and accessible information otherwise the impetus risks of dissipating; the movement will be ‘infiltrated’ and manipulated by reactionary forces to create panic, havoc and provide justifications to opinions such as those expressed by HE Read, Promotor Fidei and The Truth above.’
Hey, thanks for the shout-out!
Promotor Fidei (a.k.a: Advocatus Diaboli)
Don’t tell me that you needed me to remind you of that old trick of yours…….
Care to elucidate?
>:-)
Everyone here needs to watch The Money Masters, it explains how the central banks have been the driving force behind every boom and bust depression. You only have to read in the evening standard yesterday that the privately owned bank of England has pumped double the amount of money the government asked for into the economy. This is causing the inflation we are all reading about, all the occupy protests are aimed at the wrong place. Here they should be aimed at the bank of England, and in America they should be aimed at the federal reserve. Watch The keiser report and all will be clear!
I support the protesters on the whole, though I do not agree with reversing the cuts. Occupy London certainly wouldn’t have the backing of the vast majority of the population for this either. Most people have got that. We can’t keep borrowing to pay for non wealth producing activity.
The reason why there are so few protesters is that the people of Britain are generally an apathetic lot. Though I do think we need to address our economic system, the problems that many people are experiencing in this country are political and cultural, not just because of banking. For example, many people can’t afford a roof over their head because rents are so high and property is so expensive. They are high because there is simply not enough housing stock. Food prices are another one. Food prices have gone up and will continue to rise because of greater demand from a much higher (and wealthier e.g China) world population. Fuel prices the same. These are some of the things that are affecting peoples wallets.
I would suggest you did a little more research on the subjects and opened your horizon…..
Hi friends!
It’s vital and urgent that people understand the underlying root cause of the situation the world came to – poverty, inequality, destruction of the environment. The root cause is the way that money is created.
Now is the time when it’s really important that people understand the facts about how our money is created.
Watch this 4 min video to find out, what is the fundamental flaw in our banking system:
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/
If you feel the same, you may spread the word by handing out flyers that explain how money is created:
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/2011/10/hand-flyers-occupiers/
I do not fully agree with you; I do not think the Bank of England should be the one with the power to ‘create money’. In my understanding the BOE, like all central banks, is a privately-owned institution independent from government control whose members have previously worked in , or are still employees/board members of financial insititutions.Do you really believe they do not represent specific vested interests? Why, in this case, no one is talking about “conflict of interests”?
At click of Google search this is the first document I found
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2011-06-21/ex-deutsche-banker-to-join-boe-board
‘In my understanding the BOE, like all central banks, is a privately-owned institution independent from government control whose members have previously worked in , or are still employees/board members of financial insititutions.Do you really believe they do not represent specific vested interests?’
Well who do you think should be on the board – boyscouts?
Independent experts, but maybe they are a rare species nowadays… Is it only bankers who are able to make monetary decisions? We are made to believe this is the case. So, I take it you do not see a conflict of interests there….
How does one become an expert in a given field without having ‘hands on’ experience in that field? Do you think these ‘independent experts’ should come from academia, perhaps? Can anyone really claim to be independent in a world as interdependent as ours has now become? ‘Let he who is without sin…’, etc, etc.
Heres a radical thought, as we live in a democracy how about we directly elect the board members? Every 5 years, candidates stand on their policies, if they are not up to it, we can elect someone else?
I know, its too much to allow people a say in running national affairs.
Who should be on the General Medical Council? Minty Challis?
I think the interests there are of a completely different nature and magnitude
I like the helpful information you provide in your articles. I’ll bookmark your blog and check again here frequently. I’m quite certain I’ll learn many new stuff right here! Best of luck for the next!
The war in Libya
‘West too eager for Libyan oil’
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195674.html
Libya: All About Oil, or All About Banking?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24306
Other articles and latest news on Occupy Wall Street
http://www.globalresearch.ca/
You’re aware, I’m sure, that presstv is funded directly by the Iranian government…
No, I was not. Good to know. Frankly, however, I am not that bothered by that as long as Chossudovsky is not also financed by the Iranian gvt and he is as objective as possible in his arguments. You can access his work on other media, probably financed by other governments/corporations/etc, if it makes you feel better.
No thanks, I feel fine.
Testing.. I am having difficulties sending a post
Im no expert, but I think you just made the very best point. You obviously know a lot about what youre talking about, and I can really get behind that. Thanks for being so upfront and so honest about the subject matter. I really feel like I’ve got a better understanding now.
Re: http://occupylsx.org/?page_id=172#comment-2670
Mae, who are you talking about?
Please, everyone, identify the post to which you are referring. Some of us want to follow the threads.
Hi everyone, check out a new Occupy London video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdD_virtXc4
These are the results of Monopolycapitalism, if you only have 5 banks financing, say a hundred big firms who basicly run the economy you will always get them dictating the politicalsystem. But actually the people living in the West are quite well of, at the moment the average income of the worlds lowest 66% is 2.5 Dollars a day, which means that if you callculate inflation into the pooverty statistic that 2/3 of the worlds population are living below or on the existance minimum(esepecially since food prices have gone up because of speculation). Also if you look at, that the West is importing much more from the third world countries, than it s exporting there, and even so getting about the same amount of money for their exports than they pay for their imports, it s obvious that thrid world is practically the economic colonie of the western countries. It s exactly what Lenin(not that I agree with him in every point(avant guard theory etc.), but his Imperialism theory is pretty good) said that the bourgoisie of a few imperialist countries(Imperialism resulting out of the quicker developing capitalist economie and the monopolization in these countries) will use the profits made from the explotation of the colonies, to buy of the working class in their own countries(which they can because they control politics, because they controll the economy(they are of course not a coaliton which activly wants to opprese the people, but they do it because they want to make profits and because they want to protect their profits) and in also outsource most of the production to the economic colonies, so that most of the jobs in their countries are better payed, and not so physically exhausting Servise Industries jobs. And thats exactly what we ve got today.
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Can you source all the claims at the top please
right to the point
An excellent article on what’s behind the Occupy movement with lots of helpful links:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025
“People don’t want handouts. It’s not a class uprising and they don’t want civil war — they want just the opposite. They want everyone to live in the same country, and live by the same rules. It’s amazing that some people think that that’s asking a lot.”
For an explanation of why these “key facts” are ludicrously wrong are more, check out:
http://jctuten.tumblr.com/post/11934918565/why-the-protesters-have-got-it-all-wrong?ref=n
Hi
I’d be interested to hear how many of the occupy movement have ever held down a steady job? Further to that I’d be interested to learn how many of this same group have an Iphone or some other sort of smart phone.
I work in the city for a fund management firm, I spent several years in University (which I funded myself) to be eligible for this type of work. Yes I picked this industry for amongst many reasons the monetary benefits, that said I also had my first job at aged 13 and understand what it is to do an actual days work. I work long hours and have spent most of my adult life working very hard to get in the position I am now and would like to know who are any of you to tell me that I do not deserve my wage?
I for the record do not possess an I-phone, a flat screen tv, a playstation3 or a satellite dish, my money goes on bills, a mortgage etc ( i.e. non-luxury goods), not to mention the tax I contribute which pays for amongst many things so that people who simply aren’t bothered to look for jobs can drink special brew and tell me how what I do is the cancer of society.
Protesting corporate greed is all well and good, but what do you really hope to achieve? I’ve seen all these slogans about how there is “an other way” yet none of you appear to be able to succinctly explain what this amazing solution is. I would love for one of the anti-capitalists to put together a genuine structured hypothesis that shows an alternative is achievable and likely to be more successful than that which is currently in place.
Interesting anecdote: I passed by Finsbury square on my break earlier in the week and a colleague brought to my attention that one of protesters was smoking what appeared to be marijuana, the smell seemed to confirm this suspicion. Now as I understand as this is criminal activity and as such a substance can only be purchased illegally, this means said protester was in fact supporting the black market thus putting the money into the hands of drug dealers & criminals, ignoring the obvious moral issue. They have purchased a good which adds literally nothing to greater society in economic terms ,compared with a cash bonus ( I may or may not receive) which will be taxed and instantly fed back into the economy.
While we are all aware that there have been some bad decision by bankers as of late but there are villains in all industries, I do feel the constant bashing of city workers & the constant call for change without an actual solution to present really shows how idealistic & quite frankly naive the majority of these people are.
I am not expecting any of you to agree with me, but I would like to see how many of you would still be out protesting if you had a family to look after or if you had any real responsibilities, I suspect very few, why? because you’d have stopped feeling sorry for yourselves and gotten a job like the rest of us. GROW UP
…plenty of the protesters have families and jobs and are inconveniencing themselves as they are less self centered… for someone as highly educated as you purport to be I am disheartened by the fact that you seem only able to make your point by painting such judgmental and childish stereotypes of the people involved with the Occupylsx protest. This isn’t about ruddy iphones, cans of Carlberg or giving you a medal for doing a paper round at the age of 13, it’s about greed, injustice and dangerous/sinister short-term thinking.
Fair point about the generalization I’ve made about protesters, apologies to anyone offended by my comments on this.
That said, you still haven’t answered to the fact that occpuplsx cannot provide a tangible alternative, taking potshots at the manner in which I’ve expressed that I am proud of the fact that I have a work ethic (unlike many others in the labour force) and because I’ve highlighted the fact that many anti-capitalists support huge corporations doesn’t really discredit my point in any way.
“it’s about greed, injustice and dangerous/sinister short-term thinking.” – sounds like simple propaganda buzz words to me Shaun, perhaps respond next only when you have something of actual value to contribute.
You seem to be a person with some integrity, although a house can obviously be a luxury item. I hope you have some belief in what you do and not just do it for the money.
I work for a subsidiary Financial company in the City although I work on construction research
I have a suggestion for you – International agreement on transparency of capital movements aka cracking down the tax havens for dirty money and tax evaders.
Would that be something us, all the people who are not millionaires should agree on?
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I mostly agree with Occupy but think these movements would be so much more powerful if participants agreed on one cause to concentrate on, fight it, win it and move to the next one.
My suggestion for number one – International agreement on closing TAX HAVENS
I think no one that is not a millionaire would argue against this one and the UK would be the right country to lead this, because it harbors many of them
John from the city:
I have worked from the age of 5 (seriously) for my father in a small car repair business we have made a good living from for nearly 50 years.
I was there slaving away 6am till 6pm in the freezing cold and scorching hot when not at school. I spent 4 years at college studying motor vehicle repair. (paid for myself) Qualified with distinction. Im 33 now. Have you worked harder than me? Give me a couple of days in your office and i reckon i could do what you do. I can add up, use a computer and everything. A couple of days down my place and you wouldnt have any fingers left and would probably be tea boy.
Since the economic downturn 2008 the area has been on its knees. Times are hard. You probably dont get anywhere near edmonton, north london, you know, the place that was on the telly on fire a few months ago.
The misery that i witness every day, people going through the bags left outside the charity shops, the crime, the shops and businesses that are closed down and boarded up. We are barely staying afloat, Were surviving. Im soon to be a dad in january, what chance have we got?
I dont feel its entirely the bankers fault that were in this mess, but i do feel they must shoulder some of the blame.
The public have had to bail out your balls up and when we have to tighten our belts (were all in this together remember) and you lot are getting fatter bonuses, for failure, suprise suprise, it feels like were being taken the piss out of.
If you cant see that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, then you need to wipe the sleet from your eyes with your silk hanky.
Seeing as you dont mention your earnings, i expect they are somewhere in the £80000 year bracket.
Do i think that you deserve about £1000 week in your pocket for what you do?
Do you need to ask?
And why the big thing about a joint? Maybe it was home grown from the garden. It is harvest time afterall. And a lot nicer than that gear you city lot shove up your nose.
Renato Rodrigues: I agree, tax havens should be eradicated, do I think occupylsx are going to make this happen or will play any vital role in this, unfortunately not.
Occupied: To be clear, I actually live in North London, I make less than £40,000 a year & I do not consume cocaine or in fact consume any illegal substances, try and rationalise recreational drug-use all you like but the “home grown” can in no way be deemed an aid to society, its illegal and puts money in the pocket of criminals, plain and simple.
I understand why you’re angry, but presenting an “I’m harder than you” argument means very little, if anything it weakens your point and in all seriousness if you were genuinely capable of doing my job, you’d be doing it. I come from a large family and didn’t grow up with a huge amount of money but I was able to build a life for myself and I refuse to believe that others can’t, I’d be more inclined to put others inability to do so down to laziness and an inherent sense of over-entitlement.
The whole “rich are getting richer and the poor poorer” line is hardly something new is it? let alone something that has been created purely by the actions of some greedy bankers over the last few years.
I genuinely hope everything works out for you because you’ve obviously worked hard, but to be perfectly honest if I had a child due in three months time I wouldn’t be spending my time debating semantics on the internet, I’d be working any job going for all the hours under the sun to ensure that I could provide everything I possibly could for that kid, but then I’ve never had to really work hard have I?
I am doing well because I had a family that looked after me very well and taught me good values, I do not forget that not everyone is this lucky.
I think there is a sense that the divide between rich and poor has been increasing much faster due to globalization. Even if everyone worked hard, that would make the world a more competitive place and the weaker, less prepared would still be in trouble. There are not jobs for everyone. Far from that.
Certain rights we take for granted, were achieved because people bothered and took risks. If everyone would just look ahead and work hard, we would still be in the feudal ages.
Many people are unhappy with the way the world is nowadays. It’s not only the crisis, I think many people don’t have any hope of their lives getting any better. This is not a passing storm, it has come to stay and we might as well accept it.
The banking crash was just a symptom of society’s “dash for cash”, especially since the early ’90′s, lax controls on financial markets and the loss of morals and community as a result. Does evolution depend on us getting richer?
I’m a contract worker and since 2002 I decided to share what I have with others. That means time; encouragement; tracking down former classmates from my school days in Ethiopia and writing a book to help raise funds for WaterAid (inspired by a dream!) I also sponsored an Ethiopian teenager (and orphan) through uni and today she teaches English at a college in Addis. Also supporting my husband and son through depression and alcoholism – both now healing, thank God. When I go travelling, I make sure not just to stay in non-tourist areas, but to buy lunch for homeless people. I can’t give them a home, but I can give them some food.
We have to face the fact that the uber-rich mostly don’t give a damn. (There are a few exceptions). So, apart from demos and sit-ins (and I totally support what you’re doing!) we have to show the way.
Nature is abundant, and as a Christian, I believe life is too. We’ve got to support one another, be tolerant and non-judgemental and discover – through our actions – how amazing and compassionate people really are.
Bless you Annette. xx
I’m not sure if it’s me but it looks like the page layout is a bit messed up. it might be my laptop though. anyway
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Interesting article by Slavoj Zizek regarding the Occupy movements, including an address to the critics:
‘Occupy first. Demands come later’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/26/occupy-protesters-bill-clinton?newsfeed=true
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I have been really appreciating the debate that has been happening on this page. There have been some great comments that have stimulated a lot of thought. First thing I wanted to say was that I made a complaint to the BBC because they keep referring to you protestors as ‘anti capitalist’. Though I’m sure there are a few of you who would consider themselves so, I hope I am correct in believing the majority are not anti capitalist. Surely, all we need is a better regulated capitalism? Better regulation of the banks, legislate to ensure political parties cannot recieve donations from big business etc, some form of global government to limit the power of multi nationals and ensure a level playing field.
As an owner of a small business I have nothing against hard work, though I do believe it is the responsibility of society to ensure people have enough time to give to their leisure pursuits, their families, and their communities. In my own community which is a small town, I have witnessed the gradual loss of community and seen the transformation of the town into a collection of houses harbouring strangers. People here simply don’t have the time to get involved in community activities or projects. Many work far longer hours than they did twenty or thirty years ago. Of course there other factors at work other than people working longer hours but this is one of the major causes of community break down. So I would like to see shorter working week introduced, after all the traditional working week/year is a vestige of the Industrial Revolution. Prior to this, people worked far fewer hours a week.
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html
It would be far better for all of society if we worked fewer hours a week. But I’m in the minority here. Trying telling this to the Mail readers. Of course, it would be impossible to do this in our global unregulated economy. Companies would just relocate to China where they work 60 hours a week etc. But this is just one of the the problems with our current economic system.
I, like many others who have commented here feel fustrated with the Occupy Movements inability to come up with solutions. I wish you’d form a political party, come up with a manifesto, find some willing volunteers and start recruiting party members from the streets of the towns and cities across Britain. The Occupy Movement could form the world’s first global political party. With members in Japan, Brazil, USA etc. You could even create a website which would allow your members to vote on your policies. That would be a step forward. However, you’ll need to consider that true democracy within a population where ignorance and poor education is rife, may bring forward policies such as those which would see a capital punishment.
interesting blog. cheers
Good day! This is my 1st comment here so I just wanted to give a quick shout out and say I genuinely enjoy reading through your posts. Can you suggest any other blogs/websites/forums that go over the same subjects? Appreciate it!
cool info, this makes a lot of sense.
My dear Revolutionaries.
We must not be confused about the problem and its solution.
The problem is the Power to create money out of thin air by a private corporation, and the solution is the abolition of this power, into the hands of the Government.
The bank of England is a private corporation.
Please, please educate yourselves on History and precisely what is going on.
It is a big scam, and the only way we can truly overcome these powerful wealthy interests is by truly UNDERSTANDING the whole scam.
Please visit my website where I have compiled all relevant information for the layman.
Watch the documentaries and videos to gain and understanding of what is going on, and how we are all being duped.
Knowledge is power, and we the people, once we fully understand the full extent of the SCAM, Will prevail.
I cannot stress it enough we EACH need to thoroughly UNDERSTAND exactly what is going on, I’ve been listening to the radio and TV and there is MUCH confusion over the direction and the message of the occupy movement. This needs to change.
Get CLEAR on the SOLUTION to the problem. The solution to the problem needs to be placed on a Monetary Reform page on this website.
You can find such a link on my website below.
Please watch the videos on the problem AND the proposed solution.
We ALL need to be clear on the message, and sing from the same hymn sheet!
Find the information on my website and all over youtube. http://www.moneyexplained.net
We shall prevail!
Educate yourselves.
Farce, I get what you are saying, but all those capitals just do my head in. There should be no need to shout so loudly in a debate (and that coming from me).
You say “We ALL need to be clear on the message, and sing from the same hymn sheet!”, but how is that possible when we all have different perspectives. We need to be realistic. We can find common ground, but sing the same tune? Never gonna happen in this diverse world. I think the initial statement sums up the common ground discovered so far and there is plenty of room for refinement as new evidence comes to light.
As for your solution, you make some great points. I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with Government controlling money supply (better than they are now). But the money supply needs to be resource-grounded and Government must be democratic first – or we must set up our own proportionately representative democratic Government and let the existing one slide into memory. This is what I see the camps attempting to do. Long may it continue!
Big thanks to all those dedicating themselves to the camp long term to keep the movement flowing. Big Love.
This is the REAL Solution, occupylsx needs to update your “Initial Statements” page to show these actions which will free the people of the Debt based monetary system designed to enslave the masses.
Source: http://www.moneyexplained.net/?page_id=183
Monetary Reform
The Solution:
1. Government must retake the power to issue its own currency without debt and not leave it to a private bank cartel to have a monopoly on the creation of currency/money. Pay off the Debt with debt free Notes.
2, Abolish Fractional reserve banking. As the Debt is paid off, the reserve requirements of all banks and financial institutions would be raised proportionally at the same time.
3. Repeal the federal reserve act of 1913 and the National banking act of 1864 which allows Private banks to create and regulate Money (In the US).
4. Withdraw the US from the IMF, BIS and the World Bank.
5. Control the amount of money in circulation as Guernsey do.
The bank of North Dakota already creates its money for the people without debt. Study them.
And thus the evil Debt based fractional reserve Money system will be no more and the people will be free from the shackles of these criminals.
Please post your arguments and suggestions on Occupy Wiki – Manifesto
http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/news/
If you’ve never edited a wiki before, there’s never been a better time to start. Get involved!
How to take part:
1. Submit your idea for a policy or manifesto: http://bit.ly/DirectDemocracy – share with friends!
2. Vote on as many ideas as you can
3. Add detail, data, arguments for/against, references, and structure to the policy ideas using Wikipedia model
4. Implement the popular policies to our Manifesto page
5. Repeat this process until the tools laid out above change it.
Guys, instead of protesting that 1% (the rich) are controlling 99% (the relative poor), why are you not trying to increase your own living standard, shifting the 1% to a more reasonable, say, 20%. You could actively change this situation!
It seems that exactly the apparently economic unproductive are the only ones occupying LSX – screaming the loudest about the inacceptable situation. But you (they) are the least productive, not contributing to society.
There are 2.5m unemployed (not counting those excluded from the ONS figures) and 500,000 jobs. That’s at least 2m people unable to contribute economically. At least those without jobs can contribute by promoting positive economic change.
This is a great writing. thanks for blogging it. cheers
Pingback: The Occupy London protest – NightHawk
I take real issue with this statement by LSX: “3 years on the British government continues to subsidise ‘too big to fail banks’ banks:
£46 billion: the combined subsidy the ‘Big Five’ UK banks enjoyed in 2010;
£10 billion: of British taxpayer’s money was paid in indirect subsidy to Barclays
Lloyds, RBS, HSBC and Nationwide also enjoyed subsidies of £15bn, £13bn, £7bn and £1bn respectively.
The ‘too-big-to-fail’ subsidy for the UK’s largest four banks is 62% higher than the equivalent subsidy in Germany, despite the fact that the German economy is significantly larger”
This is not a real subsidy, as the government does not actually transfer this money to the banks. It is essentially a cost of funding benefit, that was due to the implied support provided by UK govt, hence improving bank’s external ratings and reducing spreads on debt capital markets fundraisings.
The ratings agencies recently removed this from the grading models and subsequently downgraded UK banks in October. This “surplus” no longer exists and therefore the comment is out of date at time of publishing. The wording of it is also misleading and given the general public’s lack of understanding of bank capital structures and the wider market I would say it’s use is reckless. Also you neglect the fact that you are a majority shareholder and therefore have a vested interest in the banks remaining profitable, this includes paying market rates to staff and being selective in use of balance sheet for lending.
From what I have read on this page, and others on this site, I have to conclude that the majority of supporters of LSX are confused, stupid and potentially both.
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Goldman Sachs paid 1% tax in 2008, when it made $2.3 billion and paid $10.9 in salaries and bonuses. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a6bQVsZS2_18
And… Bank of America won’t be paying any tax for 2010, but will received a nice juicy $1 billion refund from the government to say ‘thank you’ for… er… I’m not sure what for: http://www.thestreet.com/story/11059978/bank-of-america-pays-no-taxes-gets-1b-refund-report.html
Have a look at this Rolling Stone article, ‘Wall Street isn’t winning, it’s cheating’: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025
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Dear all,
Last week I was able to visit the Occupy site at St. Paul’s for the first time, as I live out in the country. I enquired of those present who is working on differentiating people in the financial system who have most contributed to the present financial mess that we are in, and who are most defending the continued operation of the current system without the necessary controls on it. I could not find a focus for this. Since Iceland had its major financial catastrophy several years ago people have been seeking out the people who caused it and exposing them (a number of whom are now hiding in Britain). We need to do the same, as well as look for sensible ways to control the financial markets and the corporate tax evasions. How do people suggest that this be done, without it being infiltrated by people and institutions intent on perpetuating the status quo?
Victor Cabral
My son has asked me why we can’t just print £92 billion pound notes and give that to the bank. I know this won’t work (and would be too heavy!) but am too ignorant about economics to explain why. Any suggestions?
Seriously guys, the zeitgeist:addendum explains everything about the monetry system and how to deal with all the problems we face today from a scientific point of viwe. I seriously suggest a look. Because even if the banks are taken down the system will only propagate another rich and poor gap… the whole socioeconomic systems need to be solved first.
I agree with Pierre above, if there is one good reliable bank, its NationWide or Co-Op. They don’t have shareholders, any business involving the socialisation of losses and Privatisation for the benefit of the 1% should be examined so we eradicate the imbalances, the blurring, blinding, and bribery infecting our system giving us Cleptocracy, Nepotism, and crony capitalism which is already leading to wars and famine.
If we can’t protect the vulnerable, we are next in line to face the baton rounds and tear gas.
You could definitely see your enthusiasm within the work you write. The sector hopes for more passionate writers such as you who are not afraid to mention how they believe. At all times go after your heart.
This is a fabulous conversation and instigated by gr8 Key Facts: THANKS FOR THE EDUCATION! Guys, when it comes to the bankers and all their dodgy dealing I cannot help thinking about how we MUST start also discussing the amount of money laundered in those banks which is dripping with the blood of Mexican (to name but one nation) youth, who through poverty wondered into dealing and ended up where 45000 have now gone : dead! Are you all aware that already at least 8% of the GDP of the whole planet is ILLEGAL drugs money. we so need that trade regulated and taxed in order to REDUCE VIOLENCE in the world…I gotta take some food to Camp
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This is great. spread the work and occupy it.